Thought Experiment…
“I have been an elder for twenty years. I have witnessed a steady decline in attendance and commitment during that time, and I want to see that trend averted. I see too many groups moving to the left; too many people who are abandoning scripture so they can feel better about themselves. Most people today hold to loosely to the understandings and traditions that made the Church great (before our decline). We need to tighten up shop and reign in the flocks before we lose everything. I believe that young people today don’t know how fine the line is between saved and unsaved; how easily they can be swept up into denominationalism and be lost to Christ. On top of that we have parents who see this happening and do nothing about it. Again, I believe this all comes down to a lack of understanding, or possibly even knowledge of scripture. With all of this said we now need to make a plan to stem the tide, how do we get the young people and their parents back to church? And not just coming, but coming regularly?”
I have heard these opinions and these questions too many times to count over the last five years. I have offerd ideas, as well as, any insight I have just as many times, and have witnessed others offer their opinions. However no matter how open to these suggestions the leaders seemed they were never acted on (at least with any kind of commitment from their part). Why would that be so? Then it hit me. I have been looking at this all wrong. There is more to the answer that I had been allowing myself to see. I cut off my thought process once I had a viable answer and never looked further to see if there could be more to it. I have always chalked it up to not just a generation gap but a cultural one as well. I thought we were just dealing with trying bridge the gap between modern and post-modern. Now I see there is more to it. It is simple, but completes the picture for me. Why would elders never take my advice or the advice of other leaders, like deacons? It is because we are tainted; we are stereotyped in with the rest of our generations, which they believe are perverting all they hold sacred. As much as they want people back in the church, they want them back on their terms. They see us as uncommitted and essentially spiritual children who go with their desires instead of scripture. With that standard set why would the truly consider any ideas we may offer? They would not, so that is why our suggestions receive a thoughtful look “Yeah that makes sense” or “I see your point”, and then once we leave they dismissed it out of hand. This also helps explain why the older more conservative and “grounded” members hold so much sway, when it comes to the decisions made in the church. If all of the younger generations can be stereotyped than the same can be done to the older generations as well. So as long as they hail from the “glory days” then they understand our plight. They know what works and how church should be done, and the commitment that it takes to be successful in this world of degrading moral values. It seems to me that it could be argued that spirituality is no longer based on scripture but adherence to a generational philosophy. Well…it is just a thought.
I agree with everything that you say…although I do not see it so much as a generational issue (even though, to a large degreee, age has much to do with it), as much as a cultural and philosophical one. Reading other blogs and sorting out my thoughts has helped put the pieces of the puzzle in place as to why.
tmm
Great thoughts. I have served the Lord both as a minister and as an elder. The responsibilities are not the same. As a shepherd my responsibility was primarily to keep them “in the fold”. At times I didn’t question if it was the correct fold I only wanted to make sure they were there in lock step. It made my responsibilities so much easier if they were. Shepherds are to protect the flock. This often means taking issue with anything that is out of the accepted norm. Sometimes that means that we as ministers will recieve the fire of the shepherds. As a minister it is hard to accept. When serving as an elder it seemed proper. It is hard to appreciate those who hurt us even when we know the intentions are good. Hang in there and continue to preach Jesus.
onedaysoon,
How can I write to you privately about this?
I think it is a matter of control, rather than disregard. Most elders I have worked with are not good leaders, nor were they ordained because of their leadership; they were perceived as “faithful” because of their attendance, adherance and defense of church doctrine, integrity of life, way of handling family and dependability. (I realize that I am generalizing, but that is the nature of this post.)
Elders tighten up when they are worried and loosen up when fear decreases. Helping them identify the source of fear is important. Helping them gauge the authenticity of the object of their fear is a step toward alleviating fear. Providing multiple ideas on how to deal with the cause of their fear will build trust and give opportunity to be a part of the discussion.
You identified several fears elders have, and they can be legitimate, but they may also be a mere feeling. Whenever an elder feels as though he is loosing control, he will do whatever he can to regain it. This exactly violates Jesus’ own action and teaching. Elders do this because they are concerned for the souls of others, for which they must give an account. However their concern may be based on transgressing church tradition rather than spiritual immorality or doctrinal error. Also it might be better to develop strong relationships with people in those circumstances rather than dealing with the issue corporately by broad enforcement or change of policy.
I think when elders do not listen to advice from “outsiders” is because: 1) they are consolidating power to themselves. 2) they are already afraid of influences they have not accurately identified. 3) they have already developed an insider/outsider approach to leadership - only they have all the information (because they are not communicating adequately) - only they are responsible for the care of the flock (not true).
This view of church leadership is authoritarian at its core; based on hierarchal structures. Their power issues from position rather than personal influence. Their power is used to control rather than to liberate.
Be encouraged - Jesus is Lord and he is working all around. Even in circumstances like you have described, he is looking for opportunities to serve. I often want him to display power and make everything right - he does that by washing the feet of his disciples (John’s and Judas’). He takes the low position and workes from there to set the powers and authorities on their heels. We may not get to wash their feet the way we imagine, so we must be attentive to opportunities as they arise. Our servant leadership may not produce fruit in our time schedule, but God will bless it in his own time. You are making a difference.
I have come to the conclusion that Elders in the type of situation you have described are not really looking for solutions. They are just wringing their hands because the church they are supposed to be in charge of is losing ground and picking up momentum in the process. It makes the Elders look bad so they deem it necessary to ask the right forward looking questions. They want to appear reasonable and open minded. This would be good if indeed they were reasonable and openminded, but generally all they really want is for you to feel like they heard your question and to be grateful that they heard your question and then to get back in line. Their actual solution is for everyone to just accept personal responsiblility to do things the traditional way without rocking the boat. It’s okay to challenge things a little bit, superficially, but this should be done quietly so that it doesn’t disrupt the status quo. If they ask the questions like “what do we need to do?” and “how can we reach people?” then they have met the caring and concerned criteria and nothing more is necessary. But they are not seriously looking for answers to the questions.
If a member keeps asking the hard questions expecting real answers then they will turn on him like white on rice. If he is on salary they will make his life miserable and eventually fire him. It happens every (excuse me, did I say “every?”, I meant to say “every”) time. Every church with leaders like this is destined to either split or wither (which is another way to say “s p a l i t t s-l–o–w—l—-y”).
Controlling Elders, mark my words. You have been warned. Get out before it gets nasty.
Blade
, Onedaysoons email williamokimberly@yahoo.com
Thank you for a good explanation, Mr. Anonymous
:-)…it is very much appreciated.
Forgiven1
Usually when suggestions are unscriptural they aren’t taken to heart. People that are hot headed and do what they want, go where they want, call people liars and don’t show respect usually get fired. That’s how it works in the real world.
These changes in the church aren’t anything new. It’s been going on for years. It’s just that some of the “feel good people” want to jump on the denominational wagon and ride with everyone else. I know of an instance where an elder and preacher wanted a letter read to the congregation that said “anything goes” to put it in a nutshell. They meant however the spirit moved them to act during worship. I mean anything.
Hmmmm, I wonder how “anything goes” would work in let’s say a funeral, wedding, city council meeting, school board meeting, the Marines or any other military branch, an executive or corporate function, your child’s classroom, your child tantrums being accepted, telling off your boss, cheating, stealing, etc. After all, let’s be “free” to do as we please. Let’s not hurt anyone’s feelings. Johnny will be scarred for life if he can’t “do it his way.” Let’s not stand out from the world; we must be as the world. Everyone else is doing it so it must be right.
Countless more examples can be given, and I’m sure someone will come back with some of their own like is the norm on these “friendship related blogs.” It’s like peas in a pod. You give each other pats on the proverbial Internt back.
If people will read the Bible book, chapter, and verse, it’s not that difficult to understand. When reading, consider the situation that is taking place, read the context of the event(s), look up definitions, pray, and talk to people then it will be okay.
GAC
Why stop there? Let’s take away all spiritual freedom. I mean, after all, we can’t have self-proclaimed “Christians” running around thinking they can (God forbid) clap during church. Why don’t we all go back to the church in 1960?? Where the kids sat in a classroom, much like school, and had homework due every Wednesday and Sunday? And what’s up with women thinking they wear pants to church, much less be actively involved in a ministry that isn’t cradle roll or serving in the afternoon pot luck. Ugh..the nerve.
MOVE ON. The church is, and you need to jump on board. If we want to have an internet blog to encourage and uplift one another, so what? What is the big issue? If we feel that a projection system or a slight variation of Sunday service may enhance people’s experience with God, who are you (or anyone for that matter) to say it’s wrong? Recently we did a song service in church on Sunday morning. It was positive, spiritual, and uplifting. I could not believe there were so many people upset with it.
I am 20 years old and in my short lived life have experienced more emotional scarring from legalist Church of Christ elders than I have in the secular world. Growing up in the Church of Christ, and now being married to a youth minister, I have always assumed that the “hate of the world” the bible speaks of would come from non-believers. Well, I was wrong. It comes from self-righteous stiffs who believe in a sit-down-and-shut-up kind of religion. That’s not me. That’s not who I am and I will not apologize for it. I allow the spirit to move me however so it desires. I do NOT and will NOT confine my soul to a subdued one hour a week devotion to God. It’s not a “whatever goes” kind of thing…it’s a “whatever GOD SAYS goes” kind of thing.
To me it is so sad to read comments like this. It is simply heartbreaking to hear of those who are so insecure about their faith that they feel the wrongful desire to shun and put down those who are so comfortable in their relationship with God.
And for goodness sake stop putting the Bible in our faces. We know what it says, regardless of how you stereotype internet bloggers. You have to put it in the chronological context and time line it was written in. If we didn’t, I would never wear gold bracelets or my hair in braids. It is precisely our understanding and interpretation of God’s Word that allows us to be so free in Christ. (1 Cor 10:23) It permits me to not be bound to your understanding, but constrains me to God’s Will.
THERE IS A PROBLEM WHEN WE LET TRADITION GET IN THE WAY OF MINISTRY.
Jodi Sandifer
GACked…deadwood
The suggestions made where not unscriptural. Scripture was in fact not in question when the suggestions where given. They dealt with how to motivate younger members and increase their attendance. The comment about the “anything goes” mentality is a stretch to apply to this post, due to the fact this post is my way of putting into words my confusion of how certain groups view Christianity, not the shortcomings of a particular group.
How can you say “…..not the shortcomings of a particular goup?” You are showing disrepect and saying insulting things about the church as you are going through your confusion. Read again what you have written. As for the “anything goes” comment that is factual.
I have read what I have written, and I hold to the idea that it is not intended to be demeaning. I am recounting my experience, which by the way is not based just one experience or place, but has come from at least examples in my short ten years of ministry. And yes, the “anything goes” idea in not factual but opinion. It is a prespective, much like legalism may be preceived by some but not others. I apoligize if my thoughts comme across as demeaning one group that is not the intent. Please accept my apology, God Bless.
Just because someone has some circumstances doesn’t mean that those situations should be the rule for all churches. Don’t fall under the complete influence of muddy waters. As for the “anything goes” that is true. A letter was written by an elder and a preacher that they wanted read to the congregation. They wanted people to worship however they wanted, whatever bloated their boat at the time so to speak. They said anything that people felt they needed to express spiritually they should be “free to do it.” Now, really think about it. You were in the military. How would that mentality fly? Do you deny there are rules in the military? Do you deny there are traditions in the military? Do you deny there are codes of conduct in the military? Do you deny there are certain unspoken rules that go on in the military?
And to “BC” who said……..”Anything goes” is such a stupid, insulting statement that it really should not be garnering such attention. Anyone who has reasoning ability knows that NO ONE believes in “anything goes” unless you subscribe to some eastern religion or the like.
I AGREE WITH YOU COMPLETELY! But the truth is an elder and a preacher wanted exactly that. They are the same ones who piggy back post on these buddy blogs.
You say your husband is a youth minister, well you need to respond accordingly. Just something to think about. With time and maturity you will see things differently. When you see someone in public greet them with a smile. That goes a long way. Just be patient. Everything will work out.
There is no cohesion when in one breath you tell me that, specific situations should not be held as the rule for the church (which is not my intent, again I was simply working through some confusion), and then in the next you base your conclusion on one instance of an elder, a preacher and their letter. Also “Muddy Puddles” does not influence this blog. I write as an outlet for my random thoughts. I have many friends with many differing opinions, I can only speak for myself, I try and go out of my way to keep all persons that I may refer to as anonymous as possible. I want as little conflict as possible to come from my writings. There will never be any semblance of unity if I incite animosity, due to my associations or my accusations. So please take what I say on its own merits, with no preconceived conclusions, and I will afford the same courtesy to those who respond.
Finally to 17, please do not patronize my wife by patting her on the head and telling her “everything will work out”. She is extremely mature and has dealt with more conflict and seen more lack of Christian love in her short tenure in ministry than many 20 year preaching veterans. She has as much right to express her frustration as anyone else. Please consider this before you reprimand her.
To 17, Yes, you are right, and I apologize for any hard feelings I may have. In the future I will be sure to smile a big fake grin at all those who have hurt the spiritual health and well being of my husband and myself. How could I ever be so insensitive?? I take great personal offense in your comment about my maturity. You are absolutely right. I am a minister’s wife. BUT I AM A WIFE FIRST, and if I feel that my husbands blog…his one outlet for frustration is being tainted by the comments of a trouble-maker, I will respond.
Jodi Sandifer
I am very confused. Please enlighten me. Why is it that some people can type their feelings and frustrations and it is okay? Their feelings and frustrations range from the nice to the ugly (even though the ugly may be the truth). Then someone comes along and does the SAME THING (remember nice to ugly) and they are reprimanded. Please explain the difference when all comments are in that range. This is a serious question.
I want people to express themselves honestly, and in context to the post. However, when comments get specific and derogatory against anyone It is time to take a step back and reassess the situation. I don’t catch it all, if at any point someone feel “hammered” or insulted by anther commenter, please let me know through e-mail or what have you and I will address the situation.
#23. This is all confusing. After all that you have said to offend a number of people on this blog that has a purpose other than what has been taking place, are you now the victim? It would seem that you need to make peace with those whom you are at odds with for everyone’s benefit.
The letter about “anything goes” was not, by any stretch of the imagination, a call to allow rampant devil worship or any such radical activity to take place in the assembly. It was mearly a plea to remove the binding restrictions we were feeling in our worship services. It was a call to remove the chains that bound us. We were not planning to make an escape into radicalism, we were just tired of dragging that ball and chain around.
It’s kind of like the saying that if you really love someone, set them free. If they love you back, they will return. We have true love and we are not trying to escape the reservation, we just wanted you to stop trying to bind us and restrict us. Do you have a problem with us having that desire?
Paul said, “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.” That’s what we are after. He also said, “You were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.” Then in 1 Peter we are told, “Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.”
I somehow get the impression that you believe if anyone is allowed to be free that they will totally and automatically abuse that freedom for unholy purposes. Therefore you want to keep the chains securely locked. You want to force everyone to be a Christian–under your terms.
But obviously, based upon Paul and Peter’s teachings, it is not only possible, but expected that we can have total freedom as well as self control.
Twice, in 1 Corinthians, Paul said “Everything is permissible.” Do you think he was mistaken? Should he be reprimanded for such radical statements? Along with those statements came a reason for one to restrict his own freedoms for the sake of others. If our hearts are right, we won’t cause harm to our brethren because of our freedom. If our hearts are wrong, we will either try to run over our brethren because of our freedom or, on the other hand, we will try to bind our own views on others and place artificial restrictions on those who would be free. Neither of those are where God wants us.
Therefore, I’m sticking with the freedom that takes into consideration the well-being of my brothers. Won’t you join me? It’s the right way.
Blade
This is a very good blog, I love it.